Monday, August 24, 2009

AWT and GRB090510 photon controversy

This story was discussed extensively on Bee's and LuMo's blogs. In brief, recent observation of very remote (12.8+ Glyrs) gamma ray burst GRB090510 observed by Fermi observatory (former GLAST satellite) was followed by another lone gamma ray photon of extraordinary high energy (31 GeV), detected be terrestrial observatory MAGIC (Major Atmospheric Gamma Imaging Cherenkov) in the same moment (six seconds window of the whole three minute burst).

While string theory (ST) is based on LS, this result was interpreted by Motl as a confirmation of ST, although in fact it confirms the validity of one of string theory postulates only. Although gamma ray dispersion was considered as one of main tests of quantum gravity theories and the picture bellow was presented in many places, LQG theory in its current state of development has nothing to say very much to this result, because it maintains LS in 3D in the same way, like string theory, as Lee Smolin explained. This picture is a snapshot of article in Scientific American, 59: "Atoms of space and time", which is definitelly worth reading by itself - but it contains desinformation, concerning LQG predictions.



Phenomenological explanation of this controversy is simple in AWT and it's based on the fact, LS is valid only for strictly 3D space, whereas cosmic space is filled by gravitons expanded into gravitational waves during inflation, i.e. tiny density fluctuations responsible for cosmic microwave background (CMB). Therefore cosmic space isn't completely "flat" and it contains "traces of higher dimensions". While LS is indeed valid for all higher hyperspaces, their projection into 3D space isn't invariant with respect to LS anymore. From AWT follows, only microwaves can propagate through vacuum like harmonic wave, thus fulfilling LS at long distances, while longer waves are propagating like tachyons and shorter waves are always composed of photons, which are propagating by subluminal speed. This dispersion can be observed in GZK limit for gamma ray photons and it manifests by delay for gamma ray photons during weak (short distance) gamma ray bursts, like MKN501 event, observed last year. In accordance with this explanation, the dispersion of more close gamma ray flashes is usually much more pronounced, then at the case of these remote ones.

As a pronounced example of light dispersion during spreading through compactified gradient can can serve Hawking radiation of black holes, which can be interpreted like light escaping from glass sphere. Long wavelengths and gravitational waves can penetrate it freely, whereas shorter wavelengths are reflected back again by total reflection mechanism



The reason, why GRB090510 burst (and some others, like GRB 080916C from September 2008) didn't exhibit a pronounced dispersion consist in point, such bursts were very remote and as such they were quite energetic - an energy corresponding mass of Sun is released in form of gamma photons in brief moment! In AWT dynamic mass of photons manifests by real mass with gravitational effects, not just a combination of momentum and kinetic energy, as presented by mainstream propaganda. This is because in AWT photon has a nonzero rest mass, albeit quite minute one. Therefore the gamma ray burst propagates through vacuum like dense cluster of photons, tied their own gravity, or like soliton, similar to vortex rings, which can propagate through fluids and gases without dispersion.




The slowing of ligth in boson condensates is based on the fact, EM wave is spreading in form of much heavier electrons, which are revolving around atoms for most of time. Neverthelles the appearance of single photons in vacuum should correspond the appearance of solitons (quantum vortices) in boson condensates.


Because wave packet cannot contain only fraction of wave (it would violate the eigenvalue postulate of quantum mechanics) both wavelength of light, both size of wave packet is compressed in the same way and the shape of vortices in boson condensates is pretty close to appearance of real photons in vacuum - it's just greatly reduced in scale along path of direction.

The cluster of photon ("photoball") is analogous to glueballs, known from weak force scale and it can serve as a prototype of heavier elementary particles. It's formed by dense swarm of photons, where the most energetic and heaviest photons are propagating at the center, while these lightweight ones are revolving center of soliton along substantially longer path, which corresponds the segregation of matter by particle density at the case of massive bodies. This could have testable impact to the distribution of energies along time axis of gamma ray flash: heavy photons should appear at the center of Gaussian curve, representing the gamma burst observation.

Because photons influence mutually at distance in this model, it may be even possible, the lone photon observed in GRB090510 was actually trapped into gamma ray flash during its travel through wast cosmic space, or it could serve as its condensation nuclei in similar way, like particle of dust enables molecules of water to condense into droplet. It would mean, the occurrence of photons of unexpectedly high energy density inside of gamma ray flashes isn't accidental at all and such model leads to another testable predictions concerning gamma ray photons distributions. The "snowball" mechanism of avalanche-like photon trapping has its analogies at the case of rain or snow condensations, laser pumping or rise of Hitler's power before WWW II.

Because photons inside are moving independently to motion of soliton, they're propagating in hidden dimensions effectively: we can say, higher dimensionality of space-time, i.e. symmetry breaking of mass density (inhomogeneity) converts into higher dimensionality of particle motion during sufficiently large space-time interval, i.e. into symmetry breaking of energy density (dispersion). The same mechanism of composite particle formation can be applied onto every other heavier particles or even objects in social systems. All elementary particles are propagating through space like solitons, composed of smaller bosons, which can be illustrated for example by relation of spin projection into axis of motion to speed of particle. The escape of particles through polar jets of black holes can be considered as an exagerrated case of soliton mechanism.



Concerning LS violation, we aren't disputing a lone photons, the exact path of which is unavailable for us - but cluster of photons as a whole, which is indeed quite different situation: at the scope of such cluster individual photons may move randomly along different paths - while they're still keeping the shape of cluster as a whole. Therefore LS remains maintained at the cluster level with respect to dispersion, thus leaving postulates of string or LQG theory intacted - but whole cluster is still moving in subluminal speed with respect to lone microwave photons, so that even lightweight neutrinos can move faster in certain cases. Atemporal logics of formal math, used in these theories cannot handle such situation easily, because of collective motion of many objects at the same moment - although it's still quite trivial to understand. For example, while theories like DSR/DSR2 proposed by Smolin and Maguejio consider violation of LS less or more successfully in 3D, they still cannot explain "violation of LS violation" at both large distance and large energy density scales, which is indeed the case of gamma ray propagation across whole Universe.

String theory could easily model violation of Lorentz symmetry in inhomogeneous 4D space-time simply by declaring it a higher-dimensional flat space in the same way, like LQG - the only problem is, scientists on both sides of ST/LQG duality still didn't realize it, while they're still seeking for signs of both extradimensions, both Lorentz symmetry violation - although they have them before eyes all the time. In addition, here exists an interesting deadlock mechanism: string theorists (ST) could introduce Lorentz symmetry (LS) violation by considering of extradimensions, but they hesitate to propose it, because LS belongs between ST postulates in 4D space-time, while LQG proponents could introduce extradimensions by considering Lorentz symmetry violation, but they grudge against it, because they proposed LQG a just "4D theory" originally.

At the moment, when both sides are earning half of grant support, no one wants to start the reconciliation of both theories by considering of ideas of the dual theory. In such a way both sides are effectively locked inside of ivory towers of their own prejudices. I presume, this example situation explains a lot, how symmetry breaking is occurring at phenomenological level and it illustrates clearly, why theoretical physicists should be payed for reconciliation of existing theories be decreasing of number of postulates, instead of for development of new ones by increasing of number of existing postulates, because divergent character of their formal thinking prohibits them in reconciliation of existing theories.

49 comments:

Anonymous said...

Don`t be silly....
http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/08/fermi-kills-all-lorentz-violating.html

El Cid said...

Oh!

Too bad. I'm sad, now. Because I think the LQG supporters like Lee, Bee, etc. except Woit, are good people, while, string theory supporters like Lubos, Distler, are arrogant. The string theorists think they are genius while the rest are crackpots. So for me a bad day, Zephir, I think it would be a good thing to lose the interest for physics and look for another hobby.

El Cid said...

Anonymous,

What do you think? Are you an expert in those matters? Do you think string theory is the only game in town? Or maybe nobody knows how the quantum gravity will be. What do you think about E8 theory, proposed by Lisi? Very few times I've been honest at this blog. But one thing is true. I can't understand anything beyond of basic quantum mechanics. I don't know why I'm interested in these matters, because my job has nothing to do with physics. So, if you're an expert, Do you have something to say?

Zephir said...

/*...I think the LQG supporters like Lee, Bee, etc. except Woit, are good people...*/
Good Jesus, u cannot judge theories by their people - and vice versa. Furthemore I'm not saying, string theory is more correct, then the LQG in this particular case of GRB090510 controversy.

Try to reread whole stuff once again - despite the language, in which it was presented...

And why don't you like Peter Woit - it's most pregnant oponent of Motl and string theory (which you don't like too)? I'm missing supersymmetry here...;-)

Zephir said...

/*...string theorists think they are genius while the rest are crackpots...*/
This is inherent property of every theorist - they just differ by level of experimental evidence of their stance.

Zephir said...

Quote from recent Motl's blasphemy:

"I urge everyone who has some responsibility for these matters to go after Smolin's neck."

It's apparent, Lubos just crossed his obvious line of unethical behavior again, becoming a public provocateur. After lost of his job on Harward he is behaving like wasted photon full of energy, which seeks for another photons willing to encircle him in soliton for not to appear so retarded. In similar way frustrated Hitler got his job for NSDAP before years.

AWT is not theory of elementary particle behavior only, being scale invariant.

El Cid said...

I think Lubos is not a good person because their words are too hard. Lubos wants Smolin is dismissed in a moment of economic crisis, like now. Not only he wants it, but also, he is asking to the chief of Smolin, that performs this action. I don't know why Lubos is behaving in this way. Doesn't he know that both, Smolin and he are workers, and belong to the same social class? It's very sad to see as the society is losing the class consciousness and we see to other workers as rivals instead of seeing them as comrades.

El Cid said...

And why don't you like Peter Woit - it's most pregnant oponent of Motl and string theory (which you don't like too)? I'm missing supersymmetry here...;-)

Not, It's not a supersymmetric behaviour of mine. It's only that I don't like this guy, because he cares only about how to sell his book and how to make more money. The polemic of the string wars is a good business for him, nothing more. Moreover, he dislikes the physics and doesn't want to talk about other theories of physics. Because of this, this guy has always deleted your comments at his blog. You are betting for reconciling the positions and he thinks your attitude is not good for his business.

El Cid said...

I prefer physicists like Smolin, Bee, Rovelli or Garret Lisi, by the way, Do you think Lisi is a genius?

Zephir said...

/*...do you think Lissi is a genius?..*/
Mr. Lissi is star of his own category, i.e. not only in abstract math, as his practical knowledge of nuclear particle world is admirable. Nevertheless, there are many other brilliant people, who aren't still so famous, like Quantoken or Matti Pitkänen linked in list of my blogs. In fact, there could be whole underground of another theorists, working in diaspora.

/*..because of this, this guy has always deleted your comments at his blog...*/
;-) I wish you the same talent in perception of material world. After all, it differs just in energy density scale. Don't give up your interest about physics so soon.

Zephir said...

/*...polemic of the string wars is a good business for him..*../
We are living in gradient driven/formed reality. It means, every confrontation of dual ideas attracts people (carriers of "2nd order ideas"), who can make profit on their separatism or reconciliation, whenever such ideas become significant (no matter, whether we are talking about white/black racism, global warming/antiwarming propaganda or dual physical theories). These "2nd level ideas" are dual mutually in the same way, like original ideas, albeit they're living in hyperspace - the gradient between original ideas is serving as a new, derived space-time level. When original conflict disappears, derived "2nd level ideas" have no reason to exist anymore as well.

Anonymous said...

Zeph HAHA You don't know the specifics of string theory, so you don't understand what Motl says. You don't know the specifics of mainstream physics, so you don't understand what Motl says...etc

Zephir said...

To understand something and to write something wrong is indeed difference. Did I write something wrong?

El Cid said...

... It's formed by dense swarm of photons, where the most energetic and heaviest photons are propagating at the center, while these lightweight ones are revolving center of soliton along substantially longer path, which corresponds the segregation of matter by particle density at the case of massive bodies. This could have testable impact to the distribution of energies along time axis of gamma ray flash: heavy photons should appear at the center of Gaussian curve, representing the gamma burst observation.

In other words, LQG is wrong. I realised that you are a proponent of string theory sometime ago, before you've even started to criticise to me. If you prefer the arrogant ones instead of good people it's your problem.

Zephir said...

/*...in other words, LQG is wrong...*/
I presume, LQG is correct in the same way, like ST. Both they're based on Lorentz symmetry in 3D, which is violated by presence of CMB photons. Both Motl, both Smolin are fooled by extradimensional nature of photon dispersion, though: prof. Smolin has no explanation for lack of dispersion, while Mr. Motl is believing, lack of macroscopic dispersion means, no Lorentz symmetry violation exists here.

If you cannot understand it, try to read my post once again - it's very simple paradox and its solution has nothing to do with personal preferences.

Zephir said...

Philosophical question:

Does some Lorentz symmetry violation occurs here?

animation

El Cid said...

There is not violation of Lorentz symmetry, because the particles are moving too slow, with low kinetic energy. These particles don't even violate galilean symmetry.

El Cid said...

Do you think I'm a fool?

While string theory (ST) is based on LS, this result was interpreted by Motl as a confirmation of ST, although in fact it confirms the validity of one of string theory postulates only. Although gamma ray dispersion was considered as one of main tests of quantum gravity theories and the picture bellow was presented in many places, LQG theory in its current state of development ...

I've already read the post many times and it's very clear. You have written that the LQG is simply wrong but in a diplomatic manner, because, you think the community who belongs to LQG are good people and they don't deserve so bad luck. So, you don't dare to speak the truth directly.

Zephir said...

/*..you don't dare to speak the truth directly...*/
LOL...;-) In absolutely flat ("empty") 3D space no Lorentz symmetry violation can occur by its very definition. If ST or LQG theories are assuming it, I've absolutely NO PROBLEM with it.

The only problem is, cosmic space filled by CMB density fluctuation isn't such "just 3D" space - it's higher dimensional space. This doesn't mean, ST or LQG theories are wrong from this moment - they just simply cannot be applied to such situation directly.

If some theory says "If A then B", it doesn't mean, such theory is wrong, whenever A condition becomes invalid. It just simply means, such theory cannot be used for such situation. There is absolutelly nothing diplomatical or even hypocritical on such stance.

Zephir said...

/*..There is not violation of Lorentz symmetry, because the particles are moving too slow..*/
Lets assume, both particles are photons of different frequency. One of them is moving in flat 3.0000 D space, the another one is moving in 3.097 D space.

El Cid said...

I think the photon that is moving in the 3.097 D space violates the Lorentz symmetry because its wave packet is also spreading through the 0.097 additional dimension. I want to say that in the 3.097 D space the energy of photon has to fill a volumen more bigger than in the 3.000 D space. So, the photon is moving more slowly in the 3.097 D space breaking the Lorentz symmetry.

Zephir said...

/*...in the 3.097 D space the energy of photon has to fill a volume more bigger than in the 3.000 D space...*/
Very good: soliton cluster of photons is sorta hypersphere, in fact. But such behavior still doesn't violate theory, which is considering Lorentz symmetry for integral number of dimensions, though. The final judgment of contemporary theories and their proponents is on you.

El Cid said...

Nevertheless, there are many other brilliant people, who aren't still so famous, like Quantoken or Matti Pitkänen linked in list of my blogs.

Matti Pitkänen is a textbook example of pseudo-scientist and Quantoken is a textbook example of quack (like you). Both can be considerd textbook examples of crackpots (like you).

Zephir said...

/*..Matti Pitkänen is a textbook example of pseudo-scientist..*/
It's easy to say, but why exactly? Because of your private feeling?

El Cid said...

See the exchange between Jester (a serious particle physicist) who is currently working at CERN and Matti Pitkänen (a serious crank) who is currently unemployed:

... Many nonsense by Matti Pitkänen ...

Jester:

Matti, it was cheap indeed, but I wanted to be clear what I think about it. These days there many random people (journalists, bank analysts, Goa hippies) visiting this page, and they might get a false impression. Of course, noone serious is going to study your work. The comments you drop here and there reveal that what you're trying promote is just a collection of words that sound technical but make no sense.

If you want to prove that I'm wrong, try to PREDICT some experimental result. For example, the analogous CDF results in the electron final state. Or predict in what other distributions they should they see an excess. Or the SHAPE of the gamma-ray spectrum measured by glast(now fermi).

This is how science works, and there are good reasons why it should be this way. If you correctly predict future experimental result, me and everyone else will crawl at your feet asking for forgiveness. And in the meantime, pls don't spam my comment section.

I wasn't clear enough, Matti. Express yourself on your blog, or in a physics journal, but not here.
...
...
More nonsense by Matti Pitkänen ...

Zephir said...

Well, I still don't see anything...

At first, I don't understand, why are you documenting crackpotism of Mr. Pitkänen by subjective claims of someone else.

At second, concerning the testable predictions, if Mr. Pitkänen would be a serious superstring theorists, his answer would be still probably the very same. Testable predictions are sensitive theme for modern physical theories in general, you know...;-) Only rather old theories (like the Aether one) can say something specific about it.

To make things clear, I don't think, Pitkänen's approach to physics is relevant at all cases, but it certainly should be analyzed in the same way, like work of B. Heim, L.Rifrio, Quantoken or Sly Kornowski. Until we do it, naive halfeducated ignorants cannot say nothing relevant about it, simply because they don't understand, what these people are really dealing with.

El Cid said...

Well, I still don't see anything...

Because, you don't know how to distinguish between a true scientist and an idler.

"Mr." Matty is only a lagger man, who is cadging to the Finnish citizens. An opprobrium to the dignity of Finland.

And I don't care if I am a rude one and what I'm writing is not polite. I'm going to write the true, neither more nor less. If you don't like then don't read it, thanks.

El Cid said...

Quantoken is a quack with a little fame, who aroused the interest of a prophet called Lubos Motl. And Heim was the king of the crackpots (R.I.P.) and his theory (Heim theory) is simply inconsistent. A pity that the world was so hard, doesn't it?.

I don't know who is L.Rifrio and Sly Kornowski, so I will shut up.

Zephir said...

/*...Heim was the king of the crackpots ... and his theory ... is simply inconsistent...*/
LOL. Any proof of it?

El Cid said...

no

Zephir said...

This is not scientific approach. We should always have some reasoning for our stance. In AWT only causal gradients which are defining time arrow of particular implication are atemporal an visible. Without causal implication our stance is just atemporal random noise and it cannot be verified in reproducible way.

El Cid said...

This is not scientific approach.

But, Is my fault that I'm unable of understanding a word of Heim' s theory?. What is the selector calculus? I have no idea.

Without causal implication our stance is just atemporal random noise and it cannot be verified in reproducible way.

Maybe, you're right, but as I don't understand the Heim's theory at all, for me is more easy to think that the theory makes not sense and Heim was a crank. At least, I know that the theory does exist, most of people have never heard anything about this theory.

Zephir said...

We should label theory as cranky because we know it - not because we don't know about it. This is what the ignorance is called.

El Cid said...

To be an ignorant is better than to be a crank. Doesn't it?

Zephir said...

Not in long term perspective. This is why evolution needs mutations: some of them are uselless or even lethal - but sometimes they become a driving force of further evolution. Without mutations we would become extinct already.

El Cid said...

Zephir,

Good argument, but in vain. You haven't convinced me. Don't forget that the extinction is inescapable in the future. Therefore, the pseudoscience is not better than the ignorance.

Zephir said...

/*..you haven't convinced me...*/
More then 70% Americans don't believe in evolution - they're simply not convinced by any evidence. In addition, convinction isn't testable, ability to object something is.

Science cares only about testable things. So I don't care, if people are feeling convinced or not - but if they've something to object.

Can you object something? If not, I'm finished for now.

El Cid said...

But, who is speaking about science, here? The science is forbidden , only it's allowed to speak about pseudoscience here (by the ignorance, not by the rules). Anyway, I don't care if my comments have liked to you or not. If they don't like you then don't read them, it's very easy. I'm going to write what I want, not what you want. I can insult you and you can insult me. This blog is an uncensored website or I'm wrong.

Zephir said...

I'm just saying, saying the things, which aren't supported at least by some logic is nonscientific.

This doesn't mean, logical things are science by definition - but the absence of logic is not what I'm willing to support in discussions.

Zephir said...

/*..This blog is an uncensored website or I'm wrong....*/
Are you kidding? Of course it's censored like most of others. For example, if you place here some link to child pornography, it will be deleted.

Zephir said...

BTW Condensation of gamma ray photons in field of microwave photons is semi-classical example of tachyonic condensation of open strings into D-strings, as proposed first by Sen in 1999 at scope of open string field theory, introduced by Witten in 1986. In another way, one string theorist is fighting against demonstration of low energy density analogy of model, proposed by another string theorists. This example demonstrates clearly, how deeply are some string theorists separated from reality, which they're trying to describe.

Zephir said...

For further reading: Phenomenological Quantum Gravity

Zephir said...

The appearance of photonballs in vacuum should correspond the appearance of single photons which should correspond the appearance of quantum vortices on boson condensates.

The both parameters are compressed, Because wave packet cannot contain only fraction of wave (it would violate the eigenvalue postulate of quantum mechanics) both wavelength, both size of wave packet is compressed and the shape of vortices in boson condensates is pretty close to appearance of real photons in vacuum - it's just greatly reduced in scale along path of direction.

Zephir said...

Turbulent airflow leads to random fluctuations in atmospheric temperature, and those make the atmosphere more or less easy for photons to traverse. The fluctuations will sometimes produce a more transparent environement, through which more entangled photons can travel without being scattered. Analogously, the spreading of microwaves through metamaterial environment made of semiconductor foam may lead into its focusation, in fact. Even the formation of dark Alexander's band in the rainbow could correspond the absence of dispersion of photons in certain range of wavelength.

Zephir said...

If neutrinos are packed together tightly enough, they become social, interactive party animals.

Zephir said...

Can Neutrinos be Superluminal? Ask OPERA! From perspective of AWT the antineutrinos are behaving like subtle bubbles and they're of slightly negative mass with respect to normal neutrinos. The ratio can be estimated like the ratio of energy of CMBR photons and the rest mass of neutrino. But the main origin of the difference observed is in the rest mass of gamma ray photons and neutrinos. Gamma ray photons are heavy and they're spreading with (macroscopically) subluminal speed because they're moving in spirals through CMBR.

Zephir said...

New constraints on energy-dependent speed of light from gamma ray bursts
As I explained here before some time, the comparison of speed of visible light and gamma ray photons could be misleading, because these two thingies tend to revolve mutually during their travel at cosmic distances, so you'll always find a smaller difference in speed, then it really exists inside of such system.

Zephir said...

Here's the article that rules out almost all discrete (i.e. Lorentz violating) theories:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v462/n7271/full/nature08574.html

Zephir said...

The circular polarization in the optical afterglow of GRB 121024A could explain, why we didn't observe any delay between light of different frequencies in distant GRBs. My explanation of this controversy is, the photons move with different speed during this - but they do revolve mutually, which manifest itself just with circular polarization of their light.